Episode 102. Harmony Kwiker: Healing the Whole Person

Harmony Kwiker

Healing the Whole Person with Gestalt Therapy

TRT 57:41

 

David:

Hello, and welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I’m your host, David Devine. And it’s a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions — Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement.

 

DAVID:

Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of the Mindful U Podcast. Today we have a special guest in the studio Harmony Kwiker. Harmony has a master’s degree in Gestalt psychotherapy. She is a psychotherapist, an author of two books, and a speaker. She is currently a visiting instructor as a professor in the Masters of Arts and clinical therapy program, teaching in the Gestalt awareness and experimental classes. She also runs and facilitates counseling and coaching with her website. Spiritually Aligned. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Thank you so much for having me, David. I’m so happy to be here.

 

DAVID:

Yeah, it’s been a bit since I’ve done a podcast. And I’m really excited about this one because Gestalt therapy just feels like a topic that I haven’t explored yet. So thank you for showing up. And to get started, I’m wondering, where did your inspiration to study Gestalt therapy come from? And what did your education journey look like? So like, where did you learn your practice from, like, what was your undergrad? Where was your master’s degree?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, when I started on the path to become a psychotherapist, I was a little ambivalent, quite honestly, I wasn’t too fond of my experiences that I had had in therapy. But I had been raised in a family of healers. And I had a lot of transpersonal experiences happening in my house. My mom was a breath worker, and led a lot of —

 

DAVID:

A what? Wow, ok.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah. So she led a lot of breath work trainings and workshops and personal growth workshops. And (laughs) I did a fire walk when I was seven.

 

DAVID:

Okay, very unique.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Very unique upbringing. And my dad is a doctor of osteopath, an alternative doctor. And so I grew up with, you know, homeopathy as my medicine and is very alternative upbringing. And I could see the healing and transformation that my parents were offering the world. And I could also see that it was unique, especially when I would go to a clinical setting, and I felt really reduced down to my symptoms. And my body, I felt very small, I didn’t actually feel better going to therapy. But I was so passionate about serving people. I decided to study psychology as an undergrad, I went to California State University of Sacramento. And I didn’t know at the time that you needed an advanced degree to practice, that wasn’t like —

 

DAVID:

Uh oh.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I know.

 

DAVID:

Oops. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

So I was getting ready to graduate and I had been teaching yoga at a yoga studio, and I had been practicing Transcendental Meditation since, since I was six. My mom had had me initiated into the practice. And it was around that time that I was suffering quite a bit. I was suffering quite — quite a bit with an eating disorder. And I had this experience where I awoke to my true self. I wasn’t sure how to actually bridge what I had just learned as an undergrad, in psychology, with serving people. And I really wanted whatever I offer the world to be practical and accessible. And so I sort of just started traveling around and found my way to Antioch University in Seattle. And I had heard that Antioch had a strong foundation in social justice, with also some classes in spirituality. And while I was there, actually, I was reading a book from an author who started the somatic program at Naropa. And I thought I should transfer to Naropa. But I stayed at Antioch. And I did my practicum at a mental health facility up there. And I felt really limited still, in how to bridge the divide between this transpersonal spiritual transformation that I knew was possible because of my upbringing and my own personal lived experience, and bring that to a clinical setting. And I had studied Gestalt at Antioch. It’s a very creative therapy, and there’s a lot of room to be in the discovery of what wants to happen when you’re a gestalt therapist. And so that was really what I had left with. I left with this idea that I could be creative. And that was enough for me to discover how to really hold space in a way that felt authentic and congruent with the truth of who I am. 

 

DAVID:

Beautiful. I’ve always found that like therapists tend to therapy themselves into being a therapist. And then they just like have this love for healing because they found the potential within therapy and or just diving into the things that need to be fixed, or just looked upon. So being a teacher at Naropa, you’re a visiting instructor in the Master’s Transpersonal, Mindfulness based program. First off, welcome to Naropa. Second, where are you traveling from? And third, what has your experience been like so far teaching at Naropa?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Thank you. Yeah, so I live just outside of Boulder. I’m in Longmont. 

 

DAVID:

Oh.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, it’s a 20 minute drive. 

 

DAVID:

Whatever. Just down the street. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, teaching at Naropa is such a unique and beautiful opportunity. I love the student body and like the wisdom and the passion for healing that they really arrive with. I only teach Gestalt because it’s really a foundational class for the transpersonal program. It’s where the students really find their seat as a clinician and learn how to weave together a really trauma informed experience with a transpersonal one. 

 

DAVID:

Okay. So does Naropa actually have a Gestalt degree program? Or is it just a couple classes to familiarize yourself with that type of therapy?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

It is two classes. So it’s a year long experience in the transpersonal program. So the degree is the Transpersonal — Mindfulness Based Transpersonal Counseling degree.

 

DAVID:

Wonderful. So what I’ve noticed, especially with Naropa, because we have many — the spectrum of therapy is just, keeps growing, you know, it went from like, talking to psychedelics, right. So there are so many forms of therapy, things like talk therapy, psychedelic therapy, wilderness therapy, Buddhist therapy, Jungian, even equine therapy. The — just the spectrum is pretty wide. What I’m wondering is how Gestalt therapy is unique and different from these other forms of therapy. And where does Gestalt therapy stand out? And who would be a great patient for this type of therapy?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, as I was saying before, Gestalt is such a creative approach to therapy. And it started in the 1930s. With this combination of a study of Zen practices and psychodrama.

 

DAVID:

Psychodrama.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Mmmhmm.

 

DAVID:

Wow, ok. Keep going.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

And also the philosophical concept of the I, though, which is a very spiritual concept of recognizing that I am a unique human being, and yet we are separate from one another. And all of these concepts make the foundation of Gestalt very unique, in that a person, a therapist comes into what’s called the dialogical relationship, meaning we’re fully in the room as a human being. I’m not acting as if I’m a separate other, as if I’m the expert, as if I’m going to fix you, or give you the right thing that’s going to cure this symptom. I’m here with you, in this experience, experiencing it with you, while also having access to my own inner resourcing, and knowledge.

 

DAVID:

What a unique way of being — I kind of feel like that’s how I facilitate my podcasts. I think I have a mind that wants to know things. And that’s my angle is like, oh, tell me more, I’m curious. So I feel like an audience member behind the mic with the questions, I guess. So trauma informed, are these the type of patients you get, are the extreme trauma informed people?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Gestalt has a wide range of application. And I also just want to name that it is the foundation of so many modalities that we know in the field like hakomi, and somatic experiencing and synergistic play therapy, because it’s so creative, we, the therapist can really create different ways of approaching whatever is in the room. And we start to see patterns that emerge as habits that people utilize in this really wise attempt to try to find some sense of stability. But these patterns become very rigid and create a lot of instability. And so the foundation of Gestalt is really applicable to almost any population, when used in a really contactable way, because we’re so much in the room that we’re resourcing and we’re co-regulating the entire time. We aren’t a threat to the client’s nervous system. So if I’m acting as if I’m the expert, you might feel judged by me, like you don’t know your own way.

 

DAVID:

There’s like a superior role of dynamic happening.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Which is actually very dysregulating.

 

DAVID:

Interesting. So you’re almost allowing your patient to feel brilliant, but you’re helping bring out their brilliance and also being unique to the healing process that they might align with more, than to be like, oh, you know, we just talk, here’s my bubble question answer sheet, tell me, you know —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

The other piece that I think you’re pointing to is that we’re also utilizing the client’s own awareness as the guiding force of the therapeutic transformation.

 

DAVID:

I feel like that’s where the healing lies is when somebody discovers, oh, wait, I am screwing up. But there’s something I’m doing here that isn’t right. When they come to that conclusion, that’s — I feel like that’s where the healing begins. And or the transformation.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

And the choice like, I can choose to continue to do this thing that’s causing me distress. Or I can see that there’s other options on the menu.

 

DAVID:

And now you know, it, you know, you are aware of, maybe it’s you, maybe it’s them, maybe there is a way to fix that. I have this idea where I come up with like one liners, and my newest one is, if you can make it worse, you can make it better. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Beautiful. 

 

DAVID:

It’s like, oh, no, it’s gonna get worse. Well, oh, no, it could get so much better. It’s like a decision in that moment, I guess.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Absolutely. And in Gestalt, we see that propensity to make things worse, as actually an attempt at completing unfinished business. 

 

DAVID:

Say more. What do you mean by that? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, people continue with habits that cause them distress because they’re wanting to resolve something from the past. And they don’t know how to do that. And so this becomes this rigid pattern. And the completion of the Gestalt — Gestalt really means a whole that’s greater than the sum of its parts. So the completion of that experience is what allows somebody to get really present with themselves and the environment.

 

DAVID:

Wow. Okay. That’s amazing. What’s interesting to think is, we do have a lot of little habits that could promote instability, or nervous system irregularities or anything that just might like hurt our health, our mind, our bodies, but yet, we’re such habit creatures, that sometimes we’d rather stick with the habit that might hurt us, compared to actually fixing it, because we’ve gotten so in a rut with our habit, like people drinking coffee every day, or like, why am I so jittery? And it’s like, I wonder why.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, there’s also just physical habits, like a way of holding the body or shape the body takes that becomes so familiar that the person doesn’t remember like how to actually feel open hearted in their body and connected vertically in their alignment.

 

DAVID:

True. I think that happens a lot. Interesting. Okay. So when I was looking into Gestalt therapy, I noticed that there was four foundational pillars in Gestalt therapy. I was curious if you could speak upon the four pillars, and how they show up in therapy, and maybe how they can be applicable in our lives? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, so the first pillar of Gestalt is what’s known as phenomenology. And that means that we are really preferencing the experience and the expression over interpreting and analyzing. And the way that this really applies to our lives is what’s known as cognitive bypassing. People can get so stuck in a loop of their thinking while overriding what they’re actually experiencing without turning towards their lived experience, and try to talk themselves out of what they’re feeling or thinking. And so by turning towards our experience, and giving it space to move, giving our — our vitality space to move, we can have an experience that’s often called catharsis where the energy can just have space to move actually out of our system, so that we have more spaciousness within ourselves.

 

DAVID:

So constricting. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, just an example of that is like when I came here to talk with you, and I feel that little bit of performance anxiety, I can try to talk myself out of it. I can try and breathe and suppress it, or I can shake and go, I’m nervous and like, let it move.

 

DAVID:

Yeah, and just be able to label it too.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah.

 

DAVID:

Great. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah. So the next one is the dialogical relationship, which is what I was talking about before where the therapist is fully in the room. And with our whole being, with our sensations in our body, with our intuition, with our nervous system with our breath, every aspect of us is present in the room with our client. And this is what’s known as contact. And in Gestalt, we talk a lot about meeting the environment at the contact boundary. And we see a boundary actually as the point where relationship happens. It’s not like this wall of like, no, that’s my boundary, as it’s often talked about. It’s the point where relationship happens. And so for the therapeutic relationship to actually have value, we need to be fully in the room.

 

DAVID:

I’d hope so.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Right, and this gets back to like, I’m not the expert. I’m not thinking about my laundry or my partner, I’m really here with you.

 

DAVID:

But I mean, tis actions of the mind, you know what I mean? The mind just does such things. But having a very present, therapist in the room can help you reroute yourself, which is a great practice, when you leave the therapy session, you’re like, able to, like, come back, have tools. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

And this is why Naropa is so unique. And that the — the mindfulness practices that are really at the foundation of the university really apply here, because our student therapists have strong mindfulness practices. And so where we shift into opening to awareness, rather than thinking and perceiving is really a practice that we can cultivate, and we can shift at will, when we really know how to do that.

 

DAVID:

And what was called dialogical — 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Relationship. 

 

DAVID:

So dialogical relationship — I have, my brain just thinks weird stuff. And I’m like, is there a trialogical or a quad logical? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I love that.

 

DAVID:

Quad-logical relationships? And —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

That’s called —

 

DAVID:

Pentagonial? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

That’s called group therapy, yes.

 

DAVID:

I don’t know. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I love that.

 

DAVID:

It doesn’t have to, like, be like quad-logical inter — it doesn’t have to be relationship, I guess.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah. So the third pillar is called field theory. And that is stating that people exist in a social context. We aren’t separate from the environment that we grew up in or that we are currently in. We are experiencing the environment and affected by the environment as we affect the environment.

 

DAVID:

Okay. And according to social media, there is new landscapes of environments and how we engage. So it’s like, the ability to feel alone, but also to feel tapped in, I guess, at the same time, it kind of creates more neuroses. Right? Have you experienced that?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

To feel alone and tapped in at the same time? Yeah.

 

DAVID:

You can be a loner and still on Instagram.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Right, I see what you’re saying. Like —

 

DAVID:

So, it can insulate your loner-isms.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

That were affected by the larger field, even when we’re by ourselves in a room with our phone, absolutely.

 

DAVID:

It’s like a field that didn’t exist, exists now. And it’s pretty prominent.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

One other thing about field theory that is important to recognize is when we are living in a system that isn’t designed for our well being, Gestalt really sees our symptoms as an effect of that. So we’re not separate from our environment in our experience of distress. And so the fourth pillar is called experimentation. And I love experimentation, it really means that we’re just gonna try some things and see what happens. And when we are trying different experiments, we always do this consensually and collaboratively with our clients because we’re in that dialogical relationship. And we sort of rearrange the therapeutic space. So there could be movements, there can be two chairs, which Gestalt is very known for. There can be big expression, we’re just trying things and doing that to — for two reasons. One is to increase awareness, and the other is to disrupt homeostasis. So to create some shift internally.

 

DAVID:

And the reason to disrupt is because — 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

To find our way back to health.

 

DAVID:

Okay.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah.

 

DAVID:

So disrupting the nervous system.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Not nervous system, disrupting homeostasis. 

 

DAVID:

Homeostasis. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Sometimes homeostasis is a dysregulated nervous system. 

 

DAVID:

Okay. Because when I think homeostasis, I think of, what is right, what is good.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

In a lot of sciences, that’s how it’s described. In Gestalt, we actually have a preference towards what’s known as homeoresis, which is a continually evolving emerging experience of aliveness.

 

DAVID:

Love it. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah. 

 

DAVID:

Wonderful.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

So good. 

 

DAVID:

Yeah, my idea of homeostasis is that’s where you want to land. But the world around us in our heads is so fleeting and changing constantly. So it’s like we have to —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, and to find a sense of security and stability, people hold rigid patterns, right. So disrupting those habitual rigid patterns is what allows for health to emerge.

 

DAVID:

All right, so I came across the idea of having a holistic approach when it comes to working with clients and Gestalt therapy. What I’m wondering is, if you could elaborate on what holistic means within the therapeutic sense of the word, and also how it is applied to this type of therapy. So I feel like it’s really easy to just be like, oh, it’s holistic. Okay. What does that mean to be holistic?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, there’s two ways that this applies to Gestalt therapy. And one is through the lens of holism, where every single thing that a client experiences, feels, thinks, breathes, every impulse is all connected and creates the whole of who they are. So the whole is greater than the sum of their parts. So we’re not only looking at their psychology, we’re not only listening to the body, we’re not only co-regulating, we’re not only trauma informed, we’re not only accessing intuition, it’s all of that is there in the room in a very holistic way.

 

DAVID:

Okay, so you’re anti only is what you’re —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

(LAUGHS)

That’s one way. That’s one way to —

 

DAVID:

Maybe not anti, but like —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

We’re in the practice of dancing with the full alchemy that is really present.

 

DAVID:

Well, there is a route to the causes in which the people are trying to fix. And sometimes it’s kind of like, oh, my shoulder hurts. Well, oh, it turns out, you’re like your C7 in the back of your — that’s pinched.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Right.

 

DAVID:

Not like your actual shoulder where the pain is located, where the pain is located, might not be holistically where it’s coming from.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

You know, we work a lot with younger parts and Gestalt because there’s so much unfinished business that’s sort of getting worked out in the present moment. And there can be this propensity to only want to look at the attachment system or only want to look at the attachment wounds. And that’s part of the whole, there’s so much more that’s present.

 

DAVID:

So what I’m curious is, do you experience patients with similar or reoccurring themes in their therapy process? As in, is there a high percentage of people with certain issues, relationship issues, with parent issues, with their mind just has bad thoughts issues? Do you notice a similarity of types of patients that come up who need Gestalt and or are searching for that type of therapy?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

That’s an interesting question, in part.

 

DAVID:

This is usually a question I ask all therapists because I’m just curious of like, oh, quitting smoking, that’s Jungian.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I see what you’re saying —

 

DAVID:

You know what I mean. Or like, I’m afraid of sharks. Okay, well go to Buddhist therapy? I don’t know. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I really think that the answer to this lies in the therapist, more so than the clients. Because each therapist creates sort of a niche for themselves, and a specialty. So when I first started my private practice, many years ago, my niece was working with maternal mental health. So I worked with new moms who are suffering from postpartum depression and anxiety. And so my practice that I have really has a lot of that population still. But because I have this gift of teaching students, and I can see how each clinician has their own area of interest, their own way of seeing the world, their own human condition, who they serve is a reflection of that.

 

DAVID:

Okay, yes. Okay, I have a fun question for you. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Oh good.

 

DAVID:

All right. So what I’m curious about is, when you’re in public, and you’re just like getting a coffee, like getting gas, you’re at a concert, you’re at a restaurant, whatever, insert daily life, public engagement here, right? I’m making stuff up here. Are you Gestalt-ing them? As in, are you playing with a therapeutic lens upon your direct experience that isn’t a client relationship, but more of an interactive relationship? Like, are you looking in the distance and be like, oh, man, that guy needs some therapy over there? Or like, oh, you know, you’re showing signs of like pillar number two not being dialogically represented in your life. You’ve studied so much about the human condition and how our brains work and how our bodies function and how is it being in the real world just knowing all this stuff? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I love that question, but I’m going to answer a different one, which is that so much of Gestalt is about our own self awareness. It’s about myself being present with what I’m experiencing, being self responsible for the way that I want to interact with the world. And so my relationships, I have a value on cultivating relationships that are very present moment, because I believe this is where relationship happens. And I’m very authentic. And so I’m very much here in the space with you. And, you know, I was — I saw Rising Up at Chautauqua a couple of weeks ago, and I met a stranger, and we had this like sweet interaction and how present and true and authentic can I be, rather than be in what I think socially acceptable behavior is and see what — what happens in that alchemy.

 

DAVID:

You’re such a Gestalt therapist. But honestly, that does resonate with me because you’re — I don’t know, personally, I’d probably be like lensing everyone like, oh, what’s going on over there? But with your experiences, what you learned, it’s like you’re lensing yourself. Constantly, it’s a constant check in, reflection, how you’re showing up, like intrusive thoughts, good thoughts. You are a barometer for the quality of thought you are having and where does the thoughts come from? Because there’s so many different sources within our minds, externally, internally.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

You know, I want to be a presence in the field that is congruent, that is safe, that is really, really here. Like that’s how I want to influence the field —

 

DAVID:

Oh you mean, pillar number three. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yes, I do.

 

DAVID:

But with a little addition of pillar number four, you’re experimenting, you’re — 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Well I do — I’ve created social experiments for myself when I’ve noticed traps that I get into, and I’ve just created sort of, what’s that called, like a bumper car, like just these barriers that I can’t — these bounds that I can’t go out of to see what wants to happen. But the other piece of this is that when I was a younger therapist, I did judge, analyze, assess, try to help, I crossed that sacred boundary and give the advice and have this urgency to be the one who knew the thing. And I just think that was a different developmental stage I was in.

 

DAVID:

The older I get, the more I realize offering, I want it to be wanted. If I’m knowledgeable in something, I kind of just like, hang back a bit. I’m not trying to — oh, that’s how you plug in a microphone. I’m just like, oh, how do you do that? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, this is — this is how we honor sovereignty.

 

DAVID:

And honestly, you can’t help someone that doesn’t want to be helped. But it’s there for them if they want it. Okay, so we’re gonna switch topics. So you suggested to me that you’d like to talk about subtle energy and energetic resonance. I love the word resonance. I’m an audio engineer. So I know what you’re talking about. So what I’m curious is, what about these two ideas or energies that you want to speak of, like what calls to you about these?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

When I was six years old, as I was sharing with you before, and I was practicing transcendental meditation every day, I was given the gift of being able to see subtle energy. And I was too young to know how to give words to it. But I would ask my mom’s friends to lay down on the couch, if I would see some emotional energy pollution over their heart center, and I would go get a crystal from my collection —

 

DAVID:

Energy pollution. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yes, EEP, emotional energy pollution. I would place a crystal on their heart, and I’d ask them to breathe. And I really — I felt so dissatisfied when I saw that the energy was still stuck there. And so I had this like really full circle moment when I was trying to find my seat as a clinician and hold space in the way that I hold space, where all of the sudden that gift of sight came back. And I explored how to be with that subtle energy in a way that was consensual. So me and my client both have a shared understanding of what’s here in the room energetically, and to listen to that energy without trying to fix it or make it go away, to really hear why it’s here, to listen to the wisdom of what’s being held. And this is where resonance comes in. Because if I’m trying to fix that energy or make it go away, I’m holding a polarity, I’m in an opposing force with it. Now I’m in a conflict with it, and a power dynamic with it. But if I need it in resonance, welcome it as it is, listen to in the most deep, sacred way possible. Give it a tone, feel it in my body, have my clients feel it in their body, the reason why it’s here, it doesn’t need to stay anymore, because it’s been heard. The message has been heard, clarity arises, and the person has more emotional energy clarity as well.

 

DAVID:

Okay. So energy pollution, this is a new term to me. So are you saying you have this ability to see energy, but do you see any in me? Am I polluted? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Let me take a look.

 

DAVID:

But what I’m actually curious, I’m trying to find the word, I can’t really find it. But I guess it’s health. But I’m curious, like energy health? Do you have the ability to see the health energy sources as well, not just the polluted sources?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, our energy is intertwined with our vitality. And so when our vital force has a lot of strength, and a lot of bandwidth and a lot of health and clarity to it, the energetic body is very, it’s like fluffy, and toned and clear, and the person knows where they end and another person begins. And this is how they can meet the environment at that sacred boundary, at the contact boundary point. So to see that clarity and to feel it is just as important to see the emotional energy pollution.

 

DAVID:

Okay. It almost feels like chakras and light bodies, like the Buddhist world how, you know, they talk about Jesus having a halo, it’s like he was glowing.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

And this is the beautiful aspect of — of weaving in a trauma informed approach with the transpersonal. Because for those who don’t know, transpersonal is really about honoring states of consciousness that are beyond the ordinary, honoring transcendent experiences as healthy and normal.

 

DAVID:

Beautiful. So with all that, how can we develop and implement these energies into our lives during our daily acts? I say that specifically like the daily act piece, because this type of idea or energy comes from a mindfulness approach, but some of our daily acts aren’t so mindful. So how do we insert mindfulness into non mindful circumstances?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

There’s so many answers to that really great question, David. One of —

 

DAVID:

So many.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

There really are. So one very practical way is to engage in what’s called life urge behaviors. So where we’re really nudging our vitality to be healthy. And that can be with our food, eating food that’s really alive, like greens and grains that are sprouted. So there’s a lot of vitality in that food.

 

DAVID:

What was it, micronutrients? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, yeah.

 

DAVID:

Phytonutrients?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yes, phytonutrients. Yeah, that’s one way. Another way is socially, if I’m holding back my truth, and I’m keeping myself sort of contained in this cage of conditioning, I’m in what’s called a death urge. So I’m not fully alive, I’m not fully here. And so just the act of speaking my authentic truth actually allows my vitality to move more clearly. So those are very practical ways to nudge the vital force and to create healthy energy. Another way relationally is actually to really know that what other people are saying, gives us information about them. And that’s part of that boundary is like, this is this person’s perception. This is this person’s experience, it doesn’t need to become mine, I don’t need to think the same thing as you for us to be in relationship.

 

DAVID:

I’d hope not.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I mean.

 

DAVID:

Because that could get a little funky. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah. But energetically, I have practices that I do every day, multiple times a day to keep myself clear. When I’m sitting with clients, I really have attention on my own source of energy, of the midline of my body, you mentioned chakras. So aligning with my vital force, and really honoring that my clients have their own source of energy within them. So I’m not giving my energy away, I’m not going over there, I’m not trying to get anything. And that keeps our energy body really clean.

 

DAVID:

I’m really enjoying Gestalt ideas, because you are just showing how powerful the patient is, or the person coming to you is, while also recognizing like you’re not giving them something, you’re just offering. It’s like an invitation to their innate brilliance, I guess. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Absolutely. 

 

DAVID:

And like the want to fix themselves. But it’s like, there’s a responsibility factor to it, which I really liked, because it’s like you want healing, you gotta want to be responsible about it.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, absolutely. And honoring, not only that they can help themselves, but that learning how they leave their healthy, aware state, they can walk out of a session with me and continue to deepen into their own health in every interaction that they have. I don’t want people dependent on me. I don’t want them to only experience this with me.

 

DAVID:

You don’t want like text messages, what do I do in this situation?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

No, I don’t, I don’t. I want them to be in discovery of what their self responsibility is, in every relationship at work with their partner, with their children honoring their children’s sovereignty, it’s so beautiful.

 

DAVID:

And honestly, there are a lot of issues that people have that aren’t easy. So when I say it’s your responsibility, I say that with like a big broad stroke, because sometimes, like the trauma you’re facing wasn’t your fault, was not your fault, you were subjected to something. And it’s really not cool. You know, I don’t want to be like, oh, we’re just like, you know, be responsible about it. It’s not fair to say that to some people, because there is — they didn’t cause it. But they went through it, and they got to deal with it. And that’s tough.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I think what’s so important about what you’re saying is that the relational component is also important for healing to happen. So it’s not only my responsibility to navigate my way through my pain and my wounds, and where I think I’m fragmented or broken, and to come back into wholeness and to self love, but that the relational piece of healing is so potent. And I see a lot of people actually get hard on themselves for wanting that relational piece, for wanting their partner to say something that their inner young one maybe always wanted to hear. But we’re not separate from other people and relationship is also good medicine.

 

DAVID:

Yeah. I mean, that’s something we know, but you know, you just said it. So there you go. All right. I feel like this question was based upon my audio mind, bringing it to the therapeutic mind with these two ideas of energy. So what’s interesting when I hear these two phrases of subtle energy, which, to me, comes off as something unconscious, or maybe gentle or small. It’s kind of like, like a little energy. It’s not something that’s constantly there, I guess. And then the idea of energetic resonance is the idea of matching a frequency or a vibe and then amplifying it to make it louder or bigger. So you have this like idea of subtle, which is small, and then the practice to resonate to make it bigger. And what I’m curious is how do they work together? And it’s just weird to think we’re amplifying the small. So how do we express these energies in a coexisting manner?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I so love the way you just put that, because what you’re naming there is that we are taking something that’s hard to see, that’s challenging to touch and even give a name to. And we are clarifying it by making it more obvious through finding resonance with it. So by listening to that subtle, that’s — can be hard to touch, hard to really name and finding resonance with the experience. The person, and this is another Gestalt principle, is bringing something subtle to what’s called the figure. So it becomes the more obvious aspect of their energy body. Now, it’s not just this sort of obscure experience.

 

DAVID:

So a thought I’m having right now is like, what is subtle energy? I’m a fairly energetic person. I’m like, ah, you know, I come home tired from a long trip, first thing I want to do is play my drum set, anything that I’m passionate about, it doesn’t steal a lot, or take a lot of energy to do even though it’s like physically demanding. And I’m wondering like, when we say subtle energy, what type of energy are we talking about? Is it like a love? Is it a relationship, is it a passion like? 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, so science has actually been able to measure our subtle energy through something called Heart Math, which is actually here in Boulder. And then this former NASA engineer named Barbara Brennan, she passed away recently, but she created the first energy medicine school and around the world is very well known in the work of subtle energy. Subtle energy is essentially what our vitality, our nervous system, if you’ve heard of the vagus nerve that comes from our brainstem and connects our gut, all of that energy that begins to mobilize and create heat in the body, heat is one of the most obvious ways to feel it, or if you like, rub your hands together and can feel that energy there. But when we think about subtle energy, the — the most common place that a client feels stuckness in their body does relate to the energy centers of the chakras. And the three that they feel the most actually overlap with the vagus nerve. And so the throat, right, this — the vagus nerve connects the brainstem down towards the heart center. So the throat chakra gets very tight, a client will often feel like there’s a rope around their neck or a ball inside their throat, or just a lot of tension there. They’re heart center, which is the next place that the vagus nerve goes and the next energy center. And that can be you know, like a wall or a barrier over their heart that’s stored there in their energy. So if I’m only listening to the clients’ words about being upset at their partner, but I’m not listening to their heart and the energy and the expression of their heart, in my perception, my listening is incomplete. So I want to hear the wall, I want that wall to have as much space and as much voice as it — as it wants, so that it can be honored.

 

DAVID:

This is where the holistic approach takes place. Because there’s energy as maybe, a subtle word behind what we’re saying, you can tell if they’re excited, you could tell if they’re distressed, there’s like signs in how we swing our words. And if we have the ability to say the words we want, I can almost see you Gestalt-ing people, and people are like stuck, and they can’t say something, but you can like still understand what they’re saying because of the holistic approach.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I can still hear what they’re saying, even though it’s not coming out of their mouth. Even if they’re not saying a word, I can still hear because I’m listening so holistically.

 

DAVID:

You’re so holistic, it’s amazing. Is subtle energy, a characteristic we can develop, or is it something our cosmic makeup gives us. I personally feel as though a bit of both. I was born a Virgo, I have what I call OCG. I got gifts, not disorders, but I’m very like, like I fold my clothing, you know, very like organized. And I do feel like that is a cosmic characteristic. And maybe something else I’ll lean into a bit more. Because you said at six years old, you’re doing transcendental meditation and you’re seeing energy pollution spots in people. Is that something you’re born with and develop? Or is it something you can develop? Like how does that function?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I personally believe that everybody has sensitivities that they can cultivate, and that when we are identified with our ordinary mind, we are less sensitive to those natural gifts that we have. And that was the case for me too. I was born with those gifts, I became identified with my condition of mind. I fell asleep to these more intuitive senses within myself. And then I anchored back into my practices to return to the gifts that were already there. And so when I’m teaching students this is really what I’m wanting them to know. I’m wanting them to reconnect with these innate gifts that they have.

 

DAVID:

Beautiful. So I had a thought when you’re talking, you’re talking about born with gifts. And what I’m understanding is people that go to therapy, it’s like, we’re not focusing on the gifts, we’re focusing on the shortcomings, the things that distress us, the things that cause unfavorable situations or feelings. And it feels as though therapy in general is trying to reignite the gifts, you know, because it’s so easy to not see them, once we have a lens of not healthy vision.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, to see the wisdom in the pattern, to see the intuitive knowing of the client, to see their personal power. And one of the reasons why I love subtle energy, which I didn’t say before, is I like seeing the way people move in their own energy body, how they — how they move with what is preventing them from contacting their full sense of self.

 

DAVID:

Yeah. All right. So turns out, you have what’s called an Institute of Spiritual Alignment, it is a website that you’ve started run. And it’s an institute that you work in, and I noticed your institute was teaching and coaching therapists and leaders to become better at their craft. Could you explain to us what the Institute of Spiritual Alignment is and what your goal is with this institute?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I had an experience when I was a new therapist, where I didn’t have a mentor, or a guide to really like — to help me understand how to cultivate my sensitivities. And one of the things I love about teaching at Naropa is the passion of my students to learn how to really cultivate the skill of doing this really important dance with clients. And so my training institute is in part, it’s — it’s a way for students to continue working with me and another part is a way for me to reach a larger audience, for people who didn’t have the gift of going to Naropa.

 

DAVID:

Okay, kinda like a mentorship in a way and for therapists becoming counselors, and —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I offer courses and I offer group coaching and — and obviously, individual coaching too, but I really want to support people and understanding the trauma informed way of how to bridge the divide between this very classical way that therapy is still thought of in most other parts of the country for people who don’t live in Boulder, and bridging that with the more transpersonal and spiritual. 

 

DAVID:

Okay, of the things we seek as humans and developing people is spiritual alignment. I think we all have a desire to be spiritually aligned. And I was thinking about that for a bit and realize there are a bunch of things within and without ourselves that can be aligned, we have so much aligning to do, I guess. What I was wondering about is how do we focus on the spiritual alignment? And also how does strengthening or developing our spiritual alignment help with all the other alignments?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I love this question so much. So I define spiritual alignment as when our thoughts, our feelings, and our actions are congruent with the truth of who we are. And that can be challenging for people to even recognize if they are identified with the misbeliefs in their mind. So if I have a delusion that I’m unlovable, and I’ve identified with that thought, can my thoughts feelings and actions be congruent with the truth of who I am, if that thought is there? So what is the truer thought and what is the actual truth of who I am? And not an acquired thought of like spiritual dogma of like, oh, yeah, I know, I’m supposed to be lovable no matter what, but like, what is actually true for you. And that is how we find alignment. When we are in our spiritual alignment, we don’t actually look to other people, for our love-ability, for our safety, for our okay-ness, for our sense of belonging, we look at that in our spiritual connection with our sense of who we truly are. And when that vitality is flowing through us in alignment, in that way, life flows in the most beautiful way possible.

 

DAVID:

Those things we call synchronicities, start, like showing up, and you’re like what? I had a thought too, because you’re talking about how the healing is within the alignment. So it’s like, in my head, my ego, can be talking about like, you’re not lovable, but in my heart, like hell, yeah, you are. You’re so loving. You have so much love and kindness and sweetness to give. And then maybe your chakra rebellious, of course you do. It’s foundational that we all are innately lovable beings. So when it’s not aligned, then an issue happens.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, I call this, a distortion happens. So our — our energy alignment comes off balance. And one way that we know that we’re off balance is we’re identified with the thoughts in our mind, and we’re disowning some aspect of ourselves, and that causes our vital force to distort. 

 

DAVID:

Oh, that’s great. So before I ask my next question, I’m curious to hear what are your spiritual beliefs? Do you practice a religion? Follow a faith? Practice a tradition or follow the constellations? I guess I asked this too, to find what spiritual alignment is one, first would need to know what spirit means to them.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yes. So I believe that spirituality is a felt sense unique to each one of us. And I was so lucky to be given a practice to reconnect with what is true for me at such a young age. And at that time, when I was six, I heard the voice of source of great spirit come through me and I had a lot of transmissions happen at a very young age. And so for me, that’s so personal. And that’s so unique. And I believe that each one of us has our own personal and unique experience of spirituality. I also believe that ritual is really important. And so for me, everything is a sacred spiritual practice. Every time I sit with a client, every time I hug my husband, or my children, being here with you now, driving home, like everything is a spiritual practice, where I get to deepen into my alignment, or see where I have fallen asleep. And seeing where I’ve started identifying with my narratives, again.

 

DAVID:

What’s wild is that can get exhausting. Like, come on, like, I gotta be spiritual a hundred percent of the time? But there is a version in which the mindfulness just takes over. And you start living a mindful life instead of inserting mindfulness into your life. It’s like you become mindful instead of trying to be.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

That is well put David, the ritual really creates the habit. And so if I wake up one morning, and I think, oh, I’m too busy, I don’t have time to sit in meditation and ask for guidance and see what I’m feeling, my other practice is at night where I do a forgiveness practice of anybody who might have offended that day and ask for forgiveness back. If I decide that I’m too busy for my practices, and that accumulates, the habit becomes to fall asleep. And then it’s much harder. But once the practice is the anchor, and the grounding, it’s really easy.

 

DAVID:

That sounds very aligned. So this is the reason why I asked the spiritual question. You know, you’re working with clients in your counseling, and you have all these patients coming in across with different ways of seeing or viewing or experiencing spirituality. What I’m curious about is your experience of having those different perspectives becoming aligned with your practice, because I could show up to and be like, oh, I’m a Buddhist or Zen or I’m atheist, I’m — I’m here —

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, for me, this is why subtle energy is so important. Because it’s the bridge between the dense energy of the body or the obvious energy of the mind. And the bridge back to a spiritual sense of well being. What I want my clients to feel a sense of overall aliveness and well being and openness to themselves, available for themselves and available for life. And I never mentioned spirituality in my work, but it’s — it’s in every single thing that I do. And so people’s personal belief systems, I actually see it as very different from spirituality. Because religion is a belief system, and that can anchor somebody in with their rituals. But if the belief system isn’t actually congruent with the truth of who they are, then their subtle energy will make that known. And so that’s all I’m actually paying attention to.

 

DAVID:

Okay. Subtle energy is loud. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

It’s the key. 

 

DAVID:

Okay. I like keys that work. So in your website, you talk about bringing Gestalt psychotherapy and spiritual transformation together? Why those two things together, other than them being the focus of your research, and your education? What about those is important and why do they work together?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Gestalt and spirituality, for me, go hand in hand, because when we are living with incomplete Gestalten — 

 

DAVID:

Okay.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

New word, yes.

 

DAVID:

I’m here for it.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

When we’re living with incomplete Gestalten, and we’re working out our unfinished business with the people in our lives, we’re actually, I believe we’re looking to them as God to be the source of our okay-ness, to be the source of our lovability, the source of our belonging. And so if we can see the way that we get hooked into that relationally, which is really easy to do, you know, the nervous gets activated, we lose access to our parietal lobe, and we’re just like in reactivity. It can happen very quickly to even the most practiced of us.

 

DAVID:

Love does that. You just like, lean into it, you’re like, what am I doing?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

I would say attachment ones do that, love is actually the answer. So when a person is — is hooked into that pattern, there are two elements that are so important to coming back to themselves. And one is awareness, and the self responsibility to then look within and see where — where is my truth? Where is my alignment?

 

DAVID:

So in your program, you’re teaching people to teach and coach. So basically, you’re like coaching the coaches, right? So there’s this like, this hierarchical, I sort of thought of that, there’s like a backstage, there’s a backstage to the show, the general public patients are the audience members and that’s kind of where I think I like. There’s like this backstage kind of thing going on, and I’m wondering, what are the skills that the therapists are learning to deal with highly informed trauma patients? That’s a lot of subtle energy happening, just energetic, like oh, sometimes it hurts to hear people’s trauma? How do you hold that space for them, to allow it to be good, and useful, and healing?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

You know, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the key is in subtle energy. Yeah, so if I am not staying in my alignment of my own vitality, as I hold space for clients, I am then acquiring their emotional energy pollution, and I feel burnt out, exhausted. I’m feeling their trauma inside of me, and I’m actually processing it for them in my body. And so to hold a really clean container, I need to keep — stay in contact with my alignment with the truth of who I am, while finding resonance with my clients, recognizing they’re not a separate other. And this is, I can say it so many times, but the lived experience of it can be so confusing, because it’s an essence piece. It’s not like do this, that, and then that and then you’re done. And so if I can do that very cleanly in the container and contact the client, where they’re at, honor, the dignity of the experiences that they’ve had in their life and where they’re at, and really see what it is that they want for themselves, co-regulate with them. I actually leave sessions feeling so lit up, like — like, more aligned, more alive, because we’ve had this experience. And that’s a lot of what I’m — I’m teaching therapists.

 

DAVID:

That’s how I feel after the podcast, I just feel like so much smarter and just alive and refreshed. And I have like new ways of looking at my own trials and things that I’m dealing with. And it’s always a beautiful experience. So I have one more question for you. I feel like this one hits kind of hard. So I was reading through your website. And I noticed this snippet about your intentions. And I just took this little piece that stuck out to me, and this is quoted from your website, we are dedicated to offering trauma informed transpersonal trainings to support the deepest repair of humanity. There’s something about that, and it like, hurt my heart in a way that almost made me cry a little because I’m just like, holy crap. There’s like people out there that are there for your healing. And it’s so beautiful to see that. And first off, it seems like very selfless and beautiful way of being. And I’m just wondering what type of people or characteristics you got to have to be willing to subject yourself to the deepest throes of humanity and trauma with people. That’s — how does that — how do you how, what, how?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

The devotion is deep, and I would say that it’s not even a conscious one. It’s — it’s been with me for a long time, and I see it on my students too. There’s this deep devotion to humanity, I think humanity is gorgeous. And I want to see everybody love who they are, feel empowered in who they are and continue to have the entire world thrive. And I have a strong belief that our internal repair and this really comes from a transpersonal framework, but that our internal repair is not separate from planetary restoration, that the healing of the earth and the healing of the planet is so interconnected with our internal healing. 

 

DAVID:

As above, so below.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

As within, so without.

 

DAVID:

I feel so much aligned right now. My spirit is just like, am I glowing more?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

You actually are, a little sparkle in your eye.

 

DAVID:

Honestly, I really appreciate you speaking with me today. It was such a pleasure, Gestalt, just — there’s something about it in the way you are talking about it that made me see the importance of just like holistically understanding like how we function, what we think, how we move through space. And it’s really beautiful because I’m gonna like take these practices into my life, and just kind of see what happens. And I just really appreciate you sharing the space. But I want to give you this time, do you want to say anything about your books, your website? And or how people can reach out to find you if they would like to follow up, maybe with some coaching or whatever?

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, so I’ve published two books. My first book is actually a self-help memoir, called Reveal: Embody the True Self Beyond Trauma and Conditioning. And it was really a hard book for me to write, my ego wanted to stop me because it was so vulnerable. And so humbling, definitely not the expert, definitely the student here. And so if you like learning through story, I see the book as my Gestalt, that Reveal is really my Gestalt. My second book came out last December, and it’s a self help book called, Alight: Living and Loving From The True Self. And the first half of the book is really about how to come back home to the truth of who we are. And the second half is how to bring that into relationship. And so there’s some relational practices in there too, and a lot about subtle energy and keeping our energetic boundaries clear and clean and toned and healthy. And then my website is the SpirituallyAligned.com. And I have courses on there for therapists and coaches, but also for anybody who wants to learn. I have some relationship courses and alignment courses.

 

DAVID:

I mean, you were just talking about, like your first book, and it’s like the confidentiality, just like out the window. Like, here it is.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Yeah, sometimes I’ll walk into a classroom and a student will be like, Harmony, I read Reveal, and I just like, stop, and I just feel naked because it’s such a vulnerable book.

 

DAVID:

I mean, the ego wants to write it, but probably didn’t want to show it. 

 

Harmony Kwiker:

No, I did not want to publish it, but there it is.

 

DAVID:

Well, you know, I’m sure a lot of people have found some really potent healing from that book. So thank you for sharing that. And also, thank you for being on the podcast. We loved having you and I’d love to dive deeper into other topics. Maybe you know, down the line, but I appreciate you sharing the space and time with me today.

 

Harmony Kwiker:

Thank you so much for your heart and your curiosity.

 

David:

On behalf of the Naropa community, thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.